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#61 

Dan
Senior Investigative Reporter

Re: 2008 Election

Now there's just Hawaii in 20 minutes.  I've got a good feeling about Hawaii--so maybe I can go to sleep.

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  • Feb 20, 2008 12:42 am

#62 

Slartibartfast
Sausage Qualls

Re: 2008 Election

yeah, well, Obama beat Clinton in Alabama 56% to 42% and she still ended up with one more delegate than he did (21 to 20).  Seems like Obama won every county in Wisconsin, though.

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  • Feb 20, 2008 12:59 am

#63 

Dan Galron
Senior Israeli Political Analyst

Re: 2008 Election

Ben,
Here is another (more in depth) comparison of Clinton and Obama's senate records
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/ … /36/458633

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  • Feb 21, 2008 4:18 pm

#64 

Dirk Gently
Member

Re: 2008 Election

Well.... here it is. Super Tuesday. Again. No, the other Super Tuesday. I'm continually amazed by the way politics has taken cult following status among average americans. Christine Lonergan called me while she was waiting to vote. My mom has gone out and canvassed. I've had many friends express real jealousy when they found out i met Obama.

anyway, anyone want to take bets on the outcome? i believe Barak will take three of the fourt states up for primaries tonight. He will increase his delegate lead. Clinton will not immediately drop out  but there will be mounting pressure for her to do so with her probably making some sort of consession that the Pennsylvania primaries will be determinative.


God

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  • Mar 4, 2008 12:41 pm

#65 

SporkTim
Member

Re: 2008 Election

I'm guessing that Hillary will win 2 or 3, at least one of them a big state.  She won't win by any large margins, and it will be pretty clear the nominee will be Obama.

However, Hillary will try very hard to make it look like a victory.  She'll emphasize "win" and gloss over "not winning by enough."  She'll stay in the race for another 5 weeks suffering several losses until she realizes that the polls in Pennsylvania don't give her the lead she'd need.

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  • Mar 4, 2008 1:18 pm

#66 

Dan
Senior Investigative Reporter

Re: 2008 Election

You have an optimistic guess for Obama.   After Nevada/New Hampshire/California I'm feeling a bit more conservative.  I hope you're right, though.  Here's my thought:

Vermont for Obama by a lot.  Maybe 20%.
Rhode for Clinton  by maybe 10%.  It will balance Vermont.

Ohio to Clinton by perhaps 7%.
Texas will be split.  Obama will come out a few delegates ahead but very narrowly lose the popular vote.

Overall Clinton gains 5 delegates, putting her a mere 158 or so behind.

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  • Mar 4, 2008 1:20 pm

#67 

SporkTim
Member

Re: 2008 Election

While the results look disappointing for Obama, I did a little math.  I counted CNN's assigned delegates and divvied up the remaining ones based on percentage of popular vote (which seems to be a bad strategy in this system).

According to my calculations, Obama needed 644 delegates before and now needs 464.  Hillary needed 767 but now needs 549.

So before yeasterday she needed to win 54.3% of the remaining delegates to win.  Yesterday she captured 54.7% of the vote, so she now only needs to win 54.3% of the vote.  It seems to me that shes much in the same place she was before.  If this surprises you, remember that her number of delegates has grown, but the remaining pool of delegates has shrunk considerably.

I do see two advantages for Hillary--she's not suffering from 11 straight defeats and a greater percentage of the remaining pool is made of stupid delegates instead of pledged delegates.

However, she's now facing another unfriendly month and the two states she's been pinning her hopes on are gone.

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  • Mar 5, 2008 10:54 am

#68 

Dan
Senior Investigative Reporter

Re: 2008 Election

I think there are two narratives.  One is the pledged delegate narrative.  The other is the total delegate narrative.  My belief is that the autocratic delegates will back whichever candidate has the most pledged delegates at the time of the convention unless there is a (very) persuasive reason not to.  Hillary will basically need to show that all those people who voted for Obama are somehow an aberration.  Currently she's saying that she has won in the only states that have mattered.  That's sort of a losing tactic, but it might work for now.  To make it truly persuasive she needs to make a few arguments.  One way to do that would be to win pretty much everything from here forward.  She might still be behind in terms of total pledged delegates, but she might be able to (somewhat credibly) claim that Obama has fizzled.

The other way to do it would be to pull ahead in terms of popular vote.  This is a little bit tricky because Obama did best in caucus states that either don't contribute to the popular vote or have lower turnouts than primary states.  Still, if combined with some closed doors and smoky rooms, it might give her enough of an air of legitimacy to claim that she has a popular mandate.

Last edited by Dan (Mar 5, 2008 1:28 pm)

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  • Mar 5, 2008 1:27 pm

#69 

SporkTim
Member

Re: 2008 Election

It looks to me like Hilary needs around  60% of the remaining delegates.  After the next two weeks, I expect that to jump to over 70%. So long, Hillary!

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  • Apr 23, 2008 3:19 pm

#70 

Dan
Senior Investigative Reporter

Re: 2008 Election

That sounds about right.  She won Pennsylvannia--but by slightly under 10%, which puts her on track for...losing.

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  • Apr 23, 2008 3:38 pm

#71 

Slartibartfast
Sausage Qualls

Re: 2008 Election

. . . but holding on long enough to make the race much more expensive and hurt the democratic side, whatever that turns out to be.

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  • Apr 23, 2008 5:27 pm

#72 

Dan
Senior Investigative Reporter

Re: 2008 Election

I wonder whether this will hurt Obama in the general.  On one hand, Hillary's doing a lot of carping.  As commentators keep saying, she keeps stealing pages out of Karl Rove's play book.  By the general election, Karl Rove's going to open his big black book and find it empty.

In the meantime, the democrats get to hog all the news coverage.  Sure, it's expensive, but Obama can afford it.  Hillary can't really.  And while Obama spent millions of dollars on Pennsylvania ads, they'll help him get a bit of brand recognition before the general election.

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  • Apr 23, 2008 11:08 pm

#73 

Marco
"dot org"

Re: 2008 Election

But all of the news coverage is bad.

Keep in mind that the media is significantly responsible for keeping Hillary in the race. No major TV news outlet has really called for Hillary to accept her loss and drop out. If anything, they continue to mislead people by suggesting that she has more of a chance to win legitimately.

It's not hard to see why: television commercials are the target of the most campaign money by far, so it's in the TV stations' best interest to prolong this.

I'm convinced that Hillary would rather see President McCain than President Obama, the same way the Clintons ensured the re-election of W. Bush instead of allowing President Howard Dean, for the same reason: so she can run again in 4 years.

Whether it's arrogance or simply a fatal character flaw, she's convinced that she deserves the presidency. She has assumed that she is rightfully the next president. Sound familiar? Sounds like W., doesn't it?

And she has run a downright shameful campaign, like W., in an attempt to cheat the system and assume her rightful seat, even with the population voting differently.

I'm pessimistic on this... while Obama has clearly won the nomination by all legitimate measures, I still think Clinton is going to end up being the nominee. I'm not sure how she'll do it, but I bet she will.

I'm tired of supporting her Democratic party. They haven't represented me and my priorities for over a decade, and I'm tired of supporting the second-worst.

Obama has been so successful because he doesn't represent that. He's as much of a Democrat as Ron Paul is a Republican. Obama has reinvigorated hope and interest from people like me who the current Democratic party has lost.

If Clinton wedges her way into the nomination, I won't vote for her. I can't vote for her. I'd rather "throw my vote away" on some random third-party candidate than live with the knowledge that I supported that.

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  • Apr 24, 2008 10:48 am

#74 

Dirk Gently
Member

Re: 2008 Election

Marco wrote:

Whether it's arrogance or simply a fatal character flaw, she's convinced that she deserves the presidency. She has assumed that she is rightfully the next president. Sound familiar? Sounds like W., doesn't it?

And she has run a downright shameful campaign, like W., in an attempt to cheat the system and assume her rightful seat, even with the population voting differently.

I agree with Marco. I agree this long strangling campaign is damaging the entire democratic party as well as Obama. It's not the length in particular but rather the nasty tactics Clinton is using. Her constant switching between different justifcations and tactics of fear will only tarnish both candidates.  Obama has not played an entirely clean game, but he's NEVER been nasty.

I agree she's threatening the system because she thinks she deserves the win. I can only imagine her frustration of years of tedious planning, campaigning and sacrifice being upset by this young, charismatic and largely inexperienced opponent. It is probably the way Nixon felt after getting so narrowly beaten by Kennedy.

Obama may not win the election, especially not after the crap she's put out. Yet if the superdelegates shun Obama for Hillary i think it would kill the only good thing to come out of the past 8 years: the huge number of younger people supporting the democratic party. Obama offered a risky redemption on american politics to bring back idealism. It might not have been able to work but it has been killed faster than i believed possible. Perhaps people like Obama and Goldwater never really had a chance. Yet my heart aches for the politics of hope over the politics of fear. Hope might be risky and unrealistic, but fear is useless and petty.

Last edited by Dirk Gently (Apr 25, 2008 10:16 am)


God

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  • Apr 25, 2008 10:15 am

#75 

Dan
Senior Investigative Reporter

Re: 2008 Election

Possibly.  But Obama's been hit by about four things.  One was the "bitter" comment.  The other three were 1) Wright, 2) Rezko, and 3) Ayers.  Rezko wasn't a very interesting story.  Wright is guilt by association.  And blaming Obama for the Weathermen is about the most ridiculous story yet.

I'd known about these three things for months--and I think they're about all that's out there.  (Excluding the drugs--but I doubt McNasty will put spotlights on youthful indiscretions.)  Clinton's stolen so many pages from Karl Rove's playbook that there's nothing left for Rove to use in November.  Except that "unpatriotic" thing, which itself is risky because in execution it will sound a whole lot like "not white enough."

Obama will do extremely well among the young and educated--both on the Republican and Democratic side.  It's not clear to me that Clinton is doing that much damage, even with all the attacks.  She might cost him in enthusiasm.  Some of her supporters might not donate to him or go out and canvas for him--but he's not hurting for money or volunteers.  Much of Clinton's support is from the solidly Democratic group.  She has the second generation feminists--but they're not going to vote for pro-life McCain.  She has a lot of union support which will also tow the party line.  I don't think she has as much Hispanic support considering the numbers there reflect roughly what you'd expect from the proportion of union and no-college voters.  And the Republicans with their xenophobia aren't in a great position to claim Hispanic votes.  Then she has the old people.  In Pennsylvania, race was a factor for a lot of them.  But party affiliation is (hopefully) a larger factor.

There's been a lot of talk about whether Obama can win the "Reagan Democrats."  I don't think this group flipped because of Reagan's policies.   I think it was the star appeal.  I think this is the same group that made Jessie Ventura governor of Minnesota.  They won't switch for McCain.

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  • Apr 25, 2008 1:36 pm

#76 

Slartibartfast
Sausage Qualls

Re: 2008 Election

All actual policies aside (and somehow it's harder to find out the details of the candidates' policy plans than it is to find out how well they bowl or drink whiskey), if Obama doesn't get the nomination I would be tempted to vote for McCain - because if nothing else, he will maintain the status quo until Obama can come back in four years and win by a huge margin.  If Clinton gets in office, I have a feeling we won't get rid of her anytime soon and there will be a lot of "back door politics" that won't come to light for years or possibly decades.  Of course, that would require me being able to stomach McCain's image.  It would be a tough choice.

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  • Apr 25, 2008 2:23 pm

#77 

naum
Member

Re: 2008 Election

It sucks that Obama has run a really positive campaign and lots of voters have responded to its stark contrast to politics as typical, but he's been muddied up a bit of late, and he still is valiant in his responses (even when answering the Wright nonsense).

It poses a thorny dilemma for him:

A) Does he continue to take pummeling and dignify it, but while doing so, gives credence to his foes and their ridiculous charges?

or

B) Get dirty himself (or his campaign management, I should say) and start flinging it back, as there is a lot of dirt that can be flung at Clintons and McCain. It would soil him as bad as the other candidates in the eyes of many though.

Get used to the 527 style attacks. I predict its going to be a long and plentiful string of outrageous racist type attacks like the recent NC Republican TV ad — done by 3rd parties and McCain can play the "good cop" and everyone thinks he's above the fray, whereas you know for certain his campaign management strategists are in touch and planning with the "extremists" he publicly decries. And in the meantime, the subservient corporate MSM (who already love McCain and openly confess they are his "base") give free play to those wild charges.

Us that get our news via internet know better, but there still is predominant majority in America (especially in flyover country) that receive it all from TV news…

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  • Apr 25, 2008 6:51 pm

#78 

SporkTim
Member

Re: 2008 Election

What really bugs me about the whole "close scrutiny" thing is the treatment of the Republicans. 

It seems like the message is "A little 'vetting' now is a good idea--after all, the Republicans will do much worse come fall."  It seems they are implying the Democrats are trying to win campaigns sweetly while the Republicans are all dirty, lying scoundrels.

Does it seem to anyone else that McCain has lead a cleaner campaign that either Clinton or Obama?  I realize the Rebulicans had a shorter contest, so the comparison is not entirely fair.  Nonetheless, I bet a campaign between McCain and Obama would be far cleaner than the current one.

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  • Apr 26, 2008 8:05 pm

#79 

Dan
Senior Investigative Reporter

Re: 2008 Election

McCain will probably run a pretty clean campaign--but McCain can only control so much of the party.  And the party can only control the 527s to a limited extent.  Swift Boat Veterans, or whatever this year's equivalent is, will do their schtick.  So will MoveOn.org.

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  • Apr 26, 2008 10:28 pm

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